October 14, 2011
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“Sincerity is the most over-rated virtue” Milton Friedman
A friend posted this clip of Milton Friedman this morning to my FB wall. He was a guest on The Phil Donahue show back and 1979. It’s astounding how relevant the discussion was to our current economic problems.
Consequently, Dr. Friedman was our guest lecturer in Economics class today. There are 5 separate videos covering the show. This one and the last stood out.
In this last one, he proposes the idea of school vouchers. Poor Phil seems to have difficulty keeping up with him throughout the interview but he’s a gracious host.
Btw, thank-you Ben H. for linking this.
Comments (42)
Very informative! I’ve obviously heard of the guy, but I’ve never actually taken the time to find out who he was. At least from these clips, he puts a lot of my thinking into sensible explanation. I’ve been reading a lot from the followers of Misesian Austrian Economics, and while I like much of what they teach, I believe that because the basis of their thought is flawed many of their conclusions are, too. I suppose this means some of Mr. Friedman’s stuff will be added to my list of what to read next.
I think the success of China and the decline of the US proves Friedman is a Kook and his ideas incredibly flawed.
@tendollar4ways - Success of China? Who’s success are you referring to? The people of China? Lol!!
@bakersdozen2 - Their living standard is rising and ours is falling.
Considering the growing movemen in this country to simply let poor people starve (take away their foodstamps) and let poor sick people die if they get sick if they cannot afford insurance or pay for treatment…. pretty soon it will be better to be poor in China than in the US.
@tendollar4ways -
China
(Link)
The average Chinese citizen isn’t reaping the benefits of China’s move towards a more Westernized economy……
“GDP per capita at $3,744 in 2009, China placed #86 out of 164 countries ranked according to 2009 World Bank data. This was just below much smaller economies such as Tunisia, Albania and Jordan.”
Interesting
@tendollar4ways - The fact you said that proves you have no idea what you are talking about.
We need more Friedmans in our world.
@The_ATM - I know you have a religious devotion to Friedman and the magical power of the free market but the fact remains China holds much of our debt and the US economy lurches towards another rececession.
We are becoming 3rd world as China is becoming 1st all because of this idiotic Friedman nonsense we have instituted since 1980.
Dude’s ideas are a proven failure.
@tendollar4ways - I could give a reasoned reply, which I would consider doing for anyone but you. But, no, brick wall, you deserve no such thing, nor is my time so worthless. Go read some mother jones.
@The_ATM - I have not been reading MJ but instead that Neoconfederate tripe you get much of your ideas from.
@tendollar4ways - I wonder how many “poor” people in China suffer from morbid obesity…. Modern Americans haven’t a clue what starvation really is; but it’s a great motivation to work!
I’ve always found Friedman’s association with the Pinochet regime to be deeply off-putting.
Naomi Klein has made the argument that a regime like Pinochet’s is necessary to implement Friedman’s ideas, because in a democracy the majority will ensure that the majority is taken care of, whereas a strict free-market has to be implemented against the will of most of society. I find that argument deeply convincing.
Ciao. I like your costume!
@SirNickDon - Friedman promotes individual economic freedom through self interest. If I choose to follow the ideals of Christ through my self interest (my particular religious/philosophical bent), I’m free to use my capital for charitable giving (as Christ directs)
There’s no catch. It boils down to how we use any of our resources whether it be monetary giving; words of encouragement or acts of kindness.
interesting but if i was still a Christian i would say his justification of greed, “everyone else does it therefore it must be the only way to go” is more in keeping with Satan. i’d also point out that the innovation that has influenced society arguably more than any other in the last century was developed by a couple of guys who were excited not about the money they could never have imagined making but about the idea of what they were creating, the PC. the two are Bill Gates and the late Steve Jobs and by many accounts greed never did drive them. Gates is one of the biggest (and quietest about it) philanthropists in the world. just something to think about.
@TheSutraDude - How do you suppose Gates and Jobs were able to make so much money? Were they taking advantage of consumers?
the title is what brought me here though. i think sincerity is a most important virtue. i believe people want their significant others to be sincere with them. the biggest complaint i hear from women is about the insincerity of men and i am quite sure parents hope their sons and daughters find someone sincere to share their lives with.
@bakersdozen2 - of course i don’t think they were taking advantage of consumers. i think that was intrinsic in the point i made about them. personally, having worked professionally in graphics on both Macs and PCs i prefer PCs for several reasons, one of them being cost effectiveness but that’s just me.
@TheSutraDude - Did you watch the videos? You certainly aren’t obliged to… Just curious.
Sincerity alone is not enough. There are many honor killings that occur because a father sincerely believes his daughter has disgraced the family name.
@TheSutraDude - So people were pursuing their own self interest by purchase Apple products?
@bakersdozen2 - i would hope so. i’ve purchased or built all of my PCs and customized them for gaming or writing music. self interest and greed are different things.
@bakersdozen2 - i did watch them although when i came back to finish the second i might have skipped a little too far ahead. you’re right. sincerity alone is not enough but without sincerity and building real trust relationships never get off the ground. i doubt it’s okay in any parents mind for a daughter to marry a man who sneaks around with other women and gambles money away behind her back.
@TheSutraDude - @TheSutraDude - One can be sincere about many different things. It’s what our sincerity is anchored to that matters.
The woman who is angry with her husband for infidelity (apart from any external moral standard) is pursuing self interest in the most rudimentary way.
@bakersdozen2 - yes one can be sincere about many different things which is why it is only one important quality. there are women who accept infidelity as long as they remain number one. other’s accept it as long as the financial support is left intact. there is always self interest involved. contributing time or money to community involves self interest but there are two sides to the coin which is expressed in the saying, “What’s good for the goose is good for the gander”. the word symbiosis expresses this two-sided coin too. “No man is an island” is another one. in fact the closest thing i’ve seen to anyone truly picking themselves up by their own bootstraps is in the fictitious character Mad Max but even in a world with no society to speak of he received help.
@TheSutraDude - The Free Enterprise system is the same way. Steve Jobs is as successful as the consumers (market) “allowed” him to be. He took advantage of his gifting and his employees, investors and consumers took advantage of it as well. If he produced a bad apple ….. Or a lemon; I wouldn’t be commenting from this iPad.
That’s all Milt was saying.
Milt was also defining greed as a virtue that causes everything good to happen. greed has it’s place but as with sincerity, by itself greed can be as dangerous as it can be beneficial.
@tendollar4ways - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCMKPtNEAto
@TheSutraDude - No, not a virtue. Just an unrelenting fact of human nature.
@TheSutraDude - And not greed… Self interest.
Greed is always used as the defining characteristic of Capitalism and so he was “allowing” for that word in order to illustrate a point about other political/socioeconomic systems.
@bakersdozen2 - greed is one of many unrelenting parts of human nature each with a virtuous and not so virtuous side.
@bakersdozen2 - Yes it was strongly defined as a defining characteristic of capitalism during the 1980s with bumper stickers and posters declaring “greed is good” and “the one with the most toys when he dies wins”. self interest is another unrelenting part of human nature and again has two sides, one we often refer to as selfishness. the other we often refer to as empathetic or compassionate.
@TheSutraDude - In a Free Market system, self interest is mixed with hard work, investment, risk and competition. Those who actively engage in the supply side of F.E. Have to adequately appeal to the demand of consumers. If they don’t, they risk failure. This provides a wonderful motivation to seek the self interest of others through product satisfaction. A successful venture benefits the community (more self interested folks). No one provides a job for altruistic reasons and no one takes a job for altruistic reasons. We engage in charity in our private time with our personal funds and Capitalism allows us to do that.
It’s not a perfect system, but historically, it’s the best.
@TheSutraDude - Michael Douglas movies and bumper stickers should not define an economic system….. at least not to the exclusion of a learned Nobel Laureate such as Dr. Friedman.
@bakersdozen2 - it’s not a perfect system. pay a visit to the CEO and top execs of the former Lehman Brothers. you’ll find them in their sprawling mansions yet they did not appeal to the demands of consumers unless consumers were demanding to lose their life savings. Wall Street is engaging in the same practices as we speak. we can do better.
@bakersdozen2 - except i lived in NYC and worked on Wall Street and the people displaying those bumper stickers were those i was surrounded by. the movie Wall Street did not define an economic system but it did tell a story of attitudes and the actions of some who take advantage of a system. i’m sure Gordon Gekko could be placed into a movie about any economic or social system without changing his character one bit.
@TheSutraDude - You should watch all 5 of the clips from the Donahue show on YouTube. The federal government is part and parcel to the abuses we’re seeing.
Though I have no problem with individual wealth; I’m opposed to cheating/ stealing ones way to prosperity. Such as what you’ve mentioned above and the recent money laundering/kick backs the Obama administration were involved in with the Solyndra Corp.
@bakersdozen2 - yes. corporate money buys government decisions for self interest. consumers are secondary at this point. state governments are also bought and sold as seen in Texas. i’m not addressing the Solyndra situation since there are a lot of allegations flying around on FOX but that is par for the course. i’d rather wait for the full factual to come out.
Excellent post my friend
I love Milton Friedman. His video on the production of a pencil to illustrate free market economics (adapted from Leonard Reed) is classic.
Hi Beth Ann, just wanted to say,’Hello’ and hope you are doing well
frank