March 22, 2011
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Biblical submission in the context of scripture.
TheTheologiansCafe posted a blog recently that deals with the idea of Submission. Here’s the link:
http://thetheologianscafe.xanga.com/743923292/women-should-submit-to-their-husbands/
I left a comment but wanted to elaborate on it further here. First I want to make clear that this is not a rebuttal of his blog but rather my perspective on Ephesians 5:22-24, “Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.”
I like Dan. He seems like a good fellow so I was somewhat surprised by the hostility of some of his commenters. I think Xangans have thrown around the words “Troll” and “Bully” a bit too liberally lately. It’s become the latest attack word. Kind of like the word “Nazi” among political foes during the election cycle. I think we’re in danger of marginalizing the meaning with our unbridled enthusiasm for our opinions.
So what? ~ People disagree with your views… it doesn’t make them Attila the Hun. (That sounded like Joy Behar)
But this is a blog for another time. Here is my response to the Ephesians reference:
I have an illustration that might serve as a metaphor of how this principle was meant to function (in a perfect world). Yesterday afternoon my husband was sleeping because he had worked a shift the night before. The kids and I had just finished lunch and I felt that a little nap was in order. I went upstairs; got comfortable and crawled into bed next to my husband. He rolled over; greeted me with a smile and I laid my head on his chest in that perfectly wonderful spot that’s always there for it.
I snuggled in close; told him I loved him and that I wanted to lay my head there for a minute and shut my eyes. He kissed my head and I fell asleep almost immediately. 30 minutes later I woke up. He had put his hand on my head to stroke my hair. It occurred to me that he had just been lying there enjoying the moment and not wanting to disturb me. I asked him if he’d been awake the whole time and he admitted that he was. I felt bad that he didn’t move on my account. If you knew my husband, you’d know he is not the type to sit still for very long. When he’s not sleeping he’s on the go.
I think this passage speaks of this type of relationship.
The woman is actually the initiator in her submission.
God is telling her to do it. The husband isn’t demanding it.
It’s something the woman is willing to do naturally for love, comfort and safety.
It’s appealing not repulsive to her.
The husband’s response is one of joy and wanting to serve her needs as he sees her coming to him eagerly with a spirit of trust in her heart.
This verse does not demand a mindless commitment contrary to how God designed our wants and desires.
Such as, “I know this is difficult guys and gals but it’s kind of like medicine… it tastes awful but it’s good for ya”. Notice also, it does not say, “Husband’s make sure that your wife submits”. That has become a popular interpretation for the more domineering sort. A scriptural stick to pull out and beat your wife with whenever she doesn’t live up to expectations. Worse yet, I have seen really controlling men try and pull it on other men’s wives. This ticks my husband off royally when it’s happened to me on a few occasions . It isn’t safe for a man to tick my husband off by pulling this trick.
When a man demands obedience, it becomes an ugly thing and marriages are thrown into a vicious cycle of anger and resentment.
Now I don’t think you can extrapolate from this verse.
Ladies, don’t work; or do anything else contrary to the will of a demanding husband.
My point in this illustration is only meant to show that God intends a strength and a pleasure to the marriage bond that works beautifully within the framework of submission.
I think fear, cynicism and the very real nature of our selfish behavior can screw up a really great principle and we usually end up arguing about the “what if’s” while missing the beauty of what God intended.
If I am to place in my husband’s care the same trust that the church places in Christ; then my husband is to guard over that trust with the same love and leadership as Christ does for His church.
To me there isn’t a more beautiful picture. Unfortunately, we creatures have a knack for taking perfectly good & godly principles and distorting them beyond all recognition.
Thank goodness there’s an opportunity for forgiveness in all relationships.
Comments (35)
I’ll have to come back and read this and I didn’t see Dan’s cuz I decided to unsub and not mess with his site anymore.I actually don’t mess with this place at all much anymore partly because of the hostility…it just isn’t worth it to me.But I’ll take the time to read and comment here later.Submission is so misunderstood by many a folk
@Inspectorgrampy5 -
I haven’t read Dan’s page in a long time, for that very reason. I think sometimes Dan tries to stir up hostility, like other popular posters, just for the sake of stirring things up.
This is an explanation of submission that I don’t see very often, but appreciate. Awhile back (maybe by years now), there was a discussion of submission by a younger woman and a few older ladies that was really good to read.
It’s always an interesting discussion, but I think people tend to apply modern connotations and definitions to terms like “submit” and miss something in translation. I’ve never read it as a call to surrender all to your husband, but as a call to trust in him to love and protect you as he should. When people lend it a sexual connotation, things just get weird.
Although, Trunthepaige did post an interesting blog awhile back on that… (The frequency with which one complies to requests for intimacy, that is.)
Bravo !
oh yeah that word “submit” has changed meaning. The Greek word used in the Bible is “hupotasso” which means “cooperate”. There is a similar word “hupakouo” which means “obey” but that isn’t used in those verses.
I do like how you’ve pointed out here that husband’s are not commanded to make their wives submit. And as others have pointed out before, the very preceding verse to this passage says that we “submit to one another out of reverence for Christ”.
@godfatherofgreenbay - You are right to make this distinction ( onderscheid in my Dutch language ) Thank You !
I didn’t read Dan’s post, and probably won’t. The problem is, folks just focus on the word “submit” without paying attention to the context it is used in.
“Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.”
AS YOU DO THE LORD.
I take it as meaning they should put all their love and devotion to their husbands as they do to God. Nowhere does it say to do whatever your husband says.
Far to often this happens when folks decide to criticize scripture. It’s the same when they tell us we’re hypocrites for eating shellfish because part of the Old Testament says not to. They don’t pay attention to the parts of the New Testament where Christ tells us it is ok to do so.
Great post!
A troll is defined as someone who posts something intentionally provocative or offensive in order to get a response. Unless Dan is living in 1955 (in which case I feel really bad for his wife), he was trolling, as he often does (See: “Black People Are Selfish”).
I agree 100% with what you wrote.It chaps my hide when men use verses like this in the bible to MAKE their wives SERVE them.Thats not at all what those verses mean and another one that gets me is women who seem to think they don’t have to love their husbands only respect them because the Bible tells the man to lve his wife and the woman to respect her husband.I hate it when it gets looked at by women they are not to be intiators of showing love,that it all has to come from the husband.The woman misses out on SOOOO much.Unfortunately,I am in a marriage like that.I could go into detail but it isn’t proper in a public forum such as this,so I’ll stop.
@TheThinkingPerson -
It’s really more the vitriol I’m speaking about. I saw that title and figured he was being provocative or illustrating absurdity. I don’t go to the boob posts or the things that look frivolous (generally speaking).
I suppose you can tell what interests me by what I post and comment on. Those things don’t interest me. Lol.
Here’s an example of something recent. It gets ridiculous really.
QS pulse: Bullies
way to go Beth. I could talk this one long time
because of all the mis-use, and interpretation that plagues the conservative christian community nationally — sad. I have lived in a marriage which demanded submission, and the verse used and shamed when I didn’t do just right – to a marriage that has been redeemed. Sadly, few teach these verses as God intended them to be taught. But oh the difference it makes when the truth is known and understood. . . for a marriage and children as well. Good words.
@Automaton_Emotion - @godfatherofgreenbay - Agreed!
@randomneuralfirings -
@grim_truth -
Thanks for the rec’s. And yes, I agree … these things do get distorted. But you can kind of see how they do…
love the illustration you gave.
what a beautiful picture of God’s idea of marriage -
not just one partner yielding, but BOTH.
because they WANT to, and not that it’s forced.
God’s ways are never cumbersome, but FREEING!
great post, friend. very well expressed
@resolved2worship - Thanks, Lys. I think the Christian community can be so off the mark it almost reinforces the secular reaction to scriptural principles. We need revival in the church as a whole especially where this is concerned.
@grace2be - Thank-you for the rec., Amber!
“God’s ways are never cumbersome, but FREEING!”
AMEN!! It breaks my heart when I see God principles misunderstood because of OUR mistakes!!!
First of all, good post with a beautifully balanced view. I seen Dan around over the years since I started blogging here in early 2005 on a previous blog from the one I hail from now, and I know I’ve seen your posts around for a long time too. However, I haven’t paid attention to either of your posts until recently, probably within the past six months, give or take.
I have also been in a marriage where those type of conservative misconceptions were abused, and now we are experiencing something new, different, and refreshing.
Now. Since I’m extremely sensitive to those old types of views, COMBINED with the fact that I’ve grown accustomed to the military style of approaching things, I honestly thought his post was a joke. I thought he was trying to poke fun at that verse and/or get a rise out of people. On a serious note, I also didn’t think it came across as being very balanced. I commented assuming he was just trying to get a rise out of people. Today I keep seeing response posts and I think they are either amusing, or disrespectful, and then there are those who are refreshing. Like you said, “Unfortunately, we creatures have a knack for taking perfectly good & godly principles and distorting them beyond all recognition.”
Beth~what a beautiful word picture you gave me. I love that little story you shared. It’s so true…….not an ugly thing to submit, but a beautiful life giving thing when we choose to work together. When a man makes a safe loving place for a woman, why wouldn’t we want to bless them with our submission. And I’m not about control or a sick “your the leader, I do whatever you say” kind of realationship either. I just know without a doubt that God made marriage to be a beautiful picture of His love and care for us. His ways make us the happiest, why do we always rebel against them like He wants to make us miserable or something?
So anyways……..right on, thanks for the post!
“This verse does not demand a mindless commitment contrary to how God designed our wants and desires.” Amen. Excellent post.
I appreciate your clear, no fuss, practical approach to submission. Our relationship with our spouse is suppose to reflect the love Christ has for His church, and the love that we show in return to Him. Thanks!
Beautiful illustration hun!
On another note, the thing I dislike the most with Christians posting is when they attack another’s belief with harsh words. I always think, where is the love. It bothers me to see it written on a blog for all to see since many coming by may not be believers and they see the hostility taking place between believers. I believe we must always think of who our audience is and that will set the tone. The Lord spokely discernment to people whom saidbelieved they were godly and showered the unsaved with His love.
Blessings!
I love the idea of Jeff holding still for thrity minutes… I remember him pulling a sled around on his back bc he could ^_^
I read his blog and did comment as well… maybe my comment sounded a bit harsh and it was quite sarcastic too… My comment was written in its way because it felt as if he was saying to submit… maybe I misinterpreted but I completely agree with your post… I’ve always been a submissive person in a sense… and well knowing who I am I know my place and I hate the thought of being obliged… I like to think of a man as head as a household but because he’s respectful and deserves that place not because it is demanded of. Thank you for this response for it makes me understand a little more the passage.
Simply Beautiful! found you on dans site, loved your answer. What a beautiful picture you paint. I could not agree with you more, and your words go straight to the heart of what God wants. It’s such a shame so few people find this in their relationships.
That is a wonderful post.
Great post. You said it like it should be. God bless you
When it comes to reading philosophical and religious texts, including the Bible…one thing that people often seem to forget is to take it into context (leading to the domineering type with the above).
Case in point, take the above…in the context of reading just one more verse:
Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wive as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
(Eph. 5:22-25) (Emphasis added on the last verse)
If one looks at how Christ loved the church…isn’t that type of love by very definition a love that submits…giving as much as one’s entire LIFE for their love? Tricky catch there…but to further elaborate your point…the Bible doesn’t call for husbands to be domineering, but rather submissive themselves, even if it is worded somewhat differently.
Throughout the Bible, God adjusts his behavior to fit the times and the culture. That culture did not place a priority on educating women, so the end result was also a greater overall dependence on the husband doing things such as answering spiritual questions and representing the family business, thus he was the head of the household at that time, and the concept of submitting to a husband was partially due to the idea that he was more educated and knowledgeable at the time. I don’t believe the same holds true today, so trying to make the verses fit our culture is simply practicing legalism rather than practicing the purpose behind the verse.
Also, Dan forgot that the cultures back then were in agricultural societies, where the entire household was responsible for the family income, so everyone was actually working and helping to produce income. It wasn’t until the industrial revolution that men suddenly went off to the office to work, leaving the women at home to be idle and causing separation in the previously-tight family unit that did everything together. Once wartime came, all stigmas about women working were ignored so women could go out and work in the factories to produce military equipment. It was only once the men came back from war that the women were forced back into the home and mainstream feminism started to really complain about things.
I agree fully! ( on all points). This is the kind of healthy model more people need to see!
I wrote a comment on there and expected to be stoned( I exaggerate)
God has been preparing me for this kind of submission with a man, and has been kind of teaching me this through caregiving for my mother, then my father.
Paul refers to the woman’s role in the home as “oikodespotes,” or “despot of the house.” At home, women rule. Remember the Honeydo List? I don’t object to my assignments from my wife, but delight to do them. In church, the role of wives is to defer to their husbands for theological reasons.
I live a submissive life with my husband he is the head of the household and he takes good care of me, and I would never want to live without him he is one good egg. His ex has said to me more than once how do I live with him he is so stubborn well he is not stubborn or prideful he is just protective and wants to be able to be a husband and I enjoy being protected. I always ask before I do something even though I don’t have too he just smiles and says cool do it… it is just a way that we have bonded and one of the ways I show my respect.
This is an awesome post; I like it a lot. Like many others, I believe that this verse gets thrown around a lot, without being fully understood and grand assumptions made.
In particular, I like the link you made in that it’s a command for wives, not husbands to enforce.
My mother-in-law and her husband struggle with this, and it’s not helped by our pastor who takes the hardcore, worldly interpretation of this verse.
I wish I could show them this, but I believe the pastor especially will call heresy on it and treat it in the wrong manner.
Thanks for the post; it really is helpful and biblically grounded.
I like your perspective. That said, there is a lot of revulsion in our culture to a woman “submitting” to her husband no matter how you interpret the word. I think a woman’s (let’s say my wife’s for illustration) job is to submit to the leadership of her husband, but that command has no bearing on the man’s (mine in this instance) job to love his wife as Christ love’s the church. Each is commanded to obedience despite the obedience or disobedience of the other. In any relationship, there must be a leader, and the scriptural model is unequivocally of male leadership. The beauty of the whole thing is that if you take scripture as a whole, the role of a woman is not of a cowering mouse, but of a strong and resourceful person contributing as much as her husband to the family. The woman in Prov. 31 isn’t, in my mind one sitting home watching soap operas and waiting for her man to provide, but one who is in every aspect his equal, and in some, probably his better. Leadership is simply a position that must be respected in order for anything to be accomplished. It is not the measure of a person’s worth. BTW, some men would do good to concentrate more on learning to lead their families and less on the faults of their wife. I’d just about guarantee, she knows her faults as well or better than he, and reminding her of them doesn’t do much to improve things.
There are some very sweet moments in this post. Thank you for sharing.
I always think of the scene from “My Big Fat Greek Wedding” where the mother talks about how, if men are the heads, then their wives are the necks, because the necks can turn the heads any way they want them to.