March 20, 2011
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Meditations on Marcus
I borrowed this image from a fellow Xangan. It wasn’t directly related to his entry but it got me to thinking about man’s duty and our expectations of God. Somehow we’ve begun to require from God a position and perspective we would never begin to entertain for ourselves.
On the surface, the above quote from Marcus Aurelius may sound like a pretty good perspective to have, maybe even a magnanimous one coming from such a great and powerful leader as the last Good Emperor. But I was immediately struck by the impracticality of this bit of wisdom. I don’t think Marcus Aurelius showed the same degree of goodwill towards subjects who refused to recognize his own earthly authority though he was certainly one of the more reasonable Emperors. I doubt he tolerated desertion from his military officers or subversion from his subjects. In fact I’m quite certain he required a degree of devotion from his people. He even paid mercenaries to help defend against the barbarians who threatened the glory of the Roman Empire he so gladly ruled.
It isn’t a position I fault him for. All leaders have at their disposal the power of the military for the purpose of defending a legitimate state and it’s citizenry. Duty and even devotion can be noble qualities. They’re attributes most people expect from those they’ve been given charge over.
Whether it be bosses, Presidents or parents, people expect recognition and acknowledgment of their position of authority. An individual’s virtue means nothing to a boss when his employees refuse to listen to directives that will ultimately benefit the company. Judges expect their rulings to have weight and consequence. It’s a Parent’s desire that their children respect and honor them etc etc…. Emperors and Presidents don’t care for subversion even if it is shrouded in virtue. If duty and respect aren’t given, the working relationship is severed. It’s how we function in our society. Even on Xanga, where we’re all equals, we expect a certain degree of respect when exchanging our ideas and opinions. It’s a good expectation to have in many ways.
So my question is:
How is it that we think that a Creator God would be content with so much less than what we demand daily?
Comments (15)
It sounds like Marcus Aurelius was an agnostic. His quote seemed to be saying to me: “We’re not sure if there are gods or not, so recognizing the authority of something we’re not sure exists is pointless.”
I see where you’re coming from with your argument, though. Who’s to say, though, that a supreme being would have the same ego that humans have, demanding people to recognize his authority? Perhaps a supreme being would merely want people to live justly and do their best to improve the world around them.
@TheThinkingPerson -
I imagine you’re right about M.A.
Thanks for commenting!
I think it’s not unreasonable to assume Marcus Aurelius was agnostic, but I read this quote a bit differently.
He says, “Live a good life.”
In his day, living a good life meant being a productive member of his society and valuing education and nationalism, and conducting both your public and private lives with honor and integrity.
You respected the law, as a citizen of the state.
You respected the government, as a beneficiary of its protections.
You conducted yourself as a good citizen in all respects.
That all sounds reasonable and applicable to a present day lifestyle.
The rest of his statement seems to emphasize the importance religion plays to him, which is negligible. His theory is that, if you have lived a good and virtuous life, then you have nothing to worry about in the afterlife, if there even is one. I don’t think he believes religion to be pointless, but irrelevant. If you are a good person and the gods are just, then you shall be treated accordingly. If not, then… You were still a good person. Being good in this life is more important to Aurelius, I think, than worrying about an afterlife.
I see your point, though. If you are a believer, then you should honor your Father as your Father and give Him the respect, obedience, love, and devotion owed to Him as the Creator.
I don’t demand respect, devotion, or anything else in personal relations, though. I extend it and hope it is returned. If not, I will likely protest ill treatment. I will definitely curtail interactions with someone who fails to reciprocate. In other words, I am Aurelius’ good citizen, more concerned with this life than even the possibility of an afterlife. This is the life in which my actions are measurable in effect.
I often think we have much lower expectations of behavior for a god than we do for our fellow humans. For example, if my human parents only spoke to me through books and intermediaries I wouldn’t respect or love them because it’s not proper behavior for a parent and there’s no relationship there. Why does god get away with it? Maybe that’s why he doesn’t get as much respect as humans do…just a thought.
Excellent post!
Bravo! This is blog is first rate!!!
good post! I think children give that love and thankfulness so naturally to God. Maybe that is why we need a childlike faith!
I’m inclined to agree with Automaton’s analysis of M.A. I think, in the end, a person who carries out God’s will due to sheer obedience, instead of a desire to show love to God, is worse than an atheist/agnostic who chooses to live a good and upright life.
Excellent post, as usual.
At least he admits that the Gods were above him. He didn’t contradict himself. I got that he was talking about being as humble and as good as we can be no matter what status and individual is living in. Great post.
I am weak with the intellectual subjects. I will try to give a frank answer.
First, my conduct was not perfect growing up. It still isn’t. So, my level of obedience is marginal, but I am not really challenged about any disobedience except possibly by my wife. However, when I was 30, someone shared the Gospel of Jesus with me and my wife and I became Believers. I may be alone in this idea, but my status with God changed from a created being to one of His children. Now He is developing me to be a better person in this life and my future life.
I think the Emperor though probably intolerant to those defying him, is offering the modern version of ‘just be a nice person, help others, and don’t judge others.’ It is a system of unaccountability. It implies that if there is a God, He/She or It grades on the classic school room grading curve. I don’t think that is going to cut it in my after life.
Sorry about my jumbled thinking.
Have a great evening,
frank
I’d say God does not demand respect. He really does not demand anything. If God demanded, He would have it. But as I understand it He is far too gentle, meek, and kind to make harsh demands. He seeks our Love. He knows us, He knows there is a seed in us waiting to blossom with the Love He planted there. With Love will follow respect, but it is our Love He values most. But remember He Loved us first.
God is patient. God is kind. He does not envy. He does not boast. He is not proud. He is not rude. He is not self-seeking. He keeps no record of wrongs. He does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the Truth. He always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. God never fails.
@CoderHead - God speaks directly to His children. Those who know Him hear Him clearly. Those who do not know Him neither know how to listen for nor hear Him.
@Richgem - @ABAHM -
Thank-you, Gail and Thank-you, Jenny!! ❤
@Automaton_Emotion - @CoderHead - @QuantumStorm - @ANVRSADDAY - @ANVRSADDAY - @dreamwraith -
Thank-you all for commenting. I enjoyed reading everyone’s thoughts. The one thing I don’t think I made clear was that I don’t believe love can be demanded. God allows us the freedom to love Him or not. In this sense I think C.S. Lewis was right….
“There are two types of people in the world. Those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says, in the end, ‘Thy will be done.’”
With parents/ friends/ children we don’t demand love but rather earn it. Respect can be expected in a sterile sense from Kings, Presidents and (in some respects) bosses and parents, if only for the very practical purpose of group cohesion and stability.
It was really from this last point that I was critical of M.A. and really anyone in a position of authority that would easily dismiss their own duty towards God while expecting much more from others.
Being a good citizen apart from due deference and acknowledgement of authority (ultimate or earthly) would be a hollow gesture to any king. The Emperor would have been unhappy (and rightly so) if any of his subjects refused to acknowledge his physical presence. A citizen who relied solely on his good works while ignoring the Emperor’s headship would have put his own head in danger of being removed.
Beyond this I think it is important to consider carefully the question of a Creator. After all, if there is a God who created every detail of our physical being and offered us this opportunity at life I would say
He is deserving of at least as much thought as He gave to us. Perhaps He’s even deserving of our Love.
Well, I think most of you know where I stand in that regard.
@TheThinkingPerson - Actually, I believe he was a Stoic. Not exactly sure what their religious beliefs were, but it would seem Marcus’ philosophy reflects stoicism at it’s core.
@TheThinkingPerson - @Simian_Musings@revelife -
Not sure if either of you would be interested in this link. It offers an interesting perspective:
M.A.
Here’s an excerpt, but the article is worth reading:
“During one of his campaigns on the Danube, A.D. 174, his army was
suffering cruelly from fatigue and thirst; and at the very moment when they
were on the point of engaging in a great battle against the barbarians, the
rain fell in abundance, refreshed the Roman soldiers, and conduced to their
victory. There was in the Roman army a legion, the Twelfth, called the
Melitine or the Thundering, which bore on its roll many Christian soldiers.
They gave thanks for the rain and the victory to the one omnipotent God who
had heard their prayers, while the pagans rendered like honor to Jupiter, the
Rain-giver and the Thunderer. The report about these Christians got spread
abroad and gained credit in the empire, so much so that there was attributed
to Marcus Aurelius a letter, in which by reason, no doubt, of this incident,
he forbade persecution of the Christians.”